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Strange 180 problem


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  • Strange 180 problem

    Excellent forum, Until this week I've always found the answer without having to post a question. I'm a part time lane mechanic (3 days a week) but also have to work the front counter. I get very little actual maintenance time. I've got 22 years of maintenance experience (Army, tank mechanic and maintenance supervisor) but less than 1 year of pinsetter experience. I've never been to pinsetter school, it's been reading manuals, forum posts and applying my maintenance experience. Guess you could say I'm getting on the job experience. This is my first post. Our pinsetters are all Brunswick A2s. We've got Vector Plus Scoring, but this is a totally mechanical issue. Here's the problem.

    First ball thrown, machine detects a strike condition, returns to up position and waits for the full deck signal. It then sets a full rack. Everything is "perfect".

    First ball thrown, machine detects standing pins, does the normal cycle and sets up for 2nd ball. 2nd ball is thrown, deck stays on the holding hook, the deadwood is swept, and the machine immediately sets an empty rack.

    I've run the machine through numerous cycles and compared it's operation with the machine beside it. The machine always waits for a full deck if it detects a strike condition, and never waits for a full deck if it detects standing pins on the first ball and a second ball is then thrown. The only thing I've noticed in the comparison is that when standing pins are detected on the first ball the 180 turret interlock link does not disengage as it should when it hits 180 on the 2nd ball cycle.

    Boss said to adjust the 180 turret interlock (he's out of town installing lanes). I pulled out the manual, and adjusted it according to adjustment 12, page 3-15. No luck, problem still existed.

    I have checked the long link to make sure it's operating the way it should. It is. It locks to the rear after the pins have dumped into the deck, it stays forward when waiting for a full deck.

    I've checked the dector rod adjustment (adjustment 1, page 3-1). It's correct.

    I've checked the clutch adjustment. It's also correct.

    Based on the history of this particular pinsetter, and conversations I've had with the other two part-time mechanics (one is a high school kid, he cleans the machines and can run stops but can't fix anything. The other is actually the lane manager - school trained on AMFs but not knowledgeable of the A2s) I suspect that the detector assembly has something bent or broken inside it. But before I pull the detector assembly off and rebuild it I'm hoping that there might be something that I've overlooked. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. The boss will be back next week, but I would like to have it fixed without having to call him in and take him away from his family.

  • #2
    Before you pull the detector off, look and see if the full deck blocking finger is remaining down when setting the empty deck, or if it is up.
    Anything worth doing, is worth doing right !


    • #3
      in the parts manual, look on page 7A and item #1 (12-100296-000 Tension Spring) sometimes if that's weak or missing it can cause a "ghost rack"
      [email protected] | jsebeny <--YouTube | Cell: 309-275-2453


      • #4
        I would like you to cycle the pinsetter to 1st ball detecting a strike. Stop exactly at 90 degrees. Look at the roller bearing on the strike cam follower and see if it is all the way into the low dwell of the timing cam. It should look something like this.

        Now do the same thing but on 2nd ball. Stop at 90 degrees and look at the roller bearing. Is it in the same place or is it just a little bit above the cam...unlike before? What determines if the 180 degree interlock link is allowed to fall at this position is the movement of the pin detector link and actuator links. The pin detector link is attached to the bottom of the strike cam follower/180 degree stop selector and when the stike cam follower goes into the low dwell of the timing cam, the pin detector link should be pulled forward...pulling the bottom of actuator links forward. If it is not pulled far enough forward, the 180 degree interlock link will not be able to clear the slot of the actuator links (actually the X-washer pin that the 180 degree interlock link is pinned to) and will stay "up" causing the gear box to not stop.

        Of course, if the pin detector link is not attached at all to the bottom of either piece it is supposed to be attached to, you could see this issue.

        Let us know what you find.
        TSM & TSM Training Development
        Main Event Entertainment
        480-620-6758 for help or information


        • #5
          Sounds more like an interlock issue more than a detector issue. I would check the long link roller and bushing at the rear of it, but usually causes double dumps. Check the pin detector link for a missing pin where it attaches to the detector on the bottom front.

          If you think it's a detector issue, I would swap it with a running one from another lane. Sounds again like linkage/interlock issues.
          My father told me to never get old...I should have listened!


          • #6
            Thanks for the quick responses and suggestions. I got called into the lanes today, the manager is sick. Once the crowd departs I'll check everything you all suggested, and let you know what I find.


            • #7
              If you find the roller bearing not all the way in the low dwell of the timing cam on second ball...I might lean toward the cycle solenoid adjustment being too low. This will prevent the movement of all the linkage...ending at the roller bearing on the strike cam follower. I don't think this is a detector issue either...just related to it.
              TSM & TSM Training Development
              Main Event Entertainment
              480-620-6758 for help or information


              • #8
                I've checked the full deck - moving deck blocking finger. It works as it should, with an empty deck it goes down when the deck is moving and returns up when the deck is up and forward in the ready to receive pins position.

                Swapped the tension spring with the lane beside the lane I'm working on. Problem did not move, it remained with the lane I'm working on, so the tension spring is most likely not the culprit.

                I then checked the cam follower roller. On first ball detection stroke with a strike condition the roller is in the low dwell of the cam. However, I also noted that I can freely spin the roller, it's not actually touching the cam. On first ball detection stroke with standing pins the roller is above the cam by about 1/16", and the cam has rotated so that the high point is under the roller. (Hopefully I explained that correctly. Forgot my camera so I can't take pictures.)

                I checked the pin detector link. All the pins are in place.

                I'll be reading chapter 23 (Detector Rod and Detector Disc) to try and get an underestanding of how this detection system is supposed to work. I've also got a used detector assembly that appears to be in decent shape so I'll be able to use that as a learning tool, at least I hope I'll be able to

                Thanks again everyone. I'll be checking back from time to time. Should I discover what the problem is I'll post back what I found.


                • #9
                  I've checked the full deck - moving deck blocking finger. It works as it should, with an empty deck it goes down when the deck is moving and returns up when the deck is up and forward in the ready to receive pins position.

                  I think you are looking at the wrong finger, unless I'm reading that wrong. The Full Deck finger should stay DOWN if the deck is full, and go UP with an empty deck. The other finger (Restricted Drop) does the motion of the going down with the deck and up with the deck.

                  [email protected] | jsebeny <--YouTube | Cell: 309-275-2453


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rLott View Post
                    On first ball detection stroke with standing pins the roller is above the cam by about 1/16",
                    Not sure why you checked this...We need you to look at the roller bearing on 2nd ball at 90 degrees.

           said you can rotate the roller bearing even on 1st ball strike? That means the strike cam follower did not make it into the low dwell. Something is either restricting the movement or the scissor cam follower is falling too soon.

                    Next test...cycle to 95 degrees 1st ball strike or second ball. Stop at 95 degrees. Now try to move the starter bellcrank rearward. Will it move? Or is it tight?
                    TSM & TSM Training Development
                    Main Event Entertainment
                    480-620-6758 for help or information


                    • #11
                      its a long shot but possibly your oil pan is not on properly if its setting empty decks?


                      • #12
                        Finally had time to do more than look at this machine. The link to the out-of-range reset lever was slightly bent, and was dragging on the clutch actuator link. Replaced the link (took one off an old machine that we're going to junk out) and it now behaves properly. However, I also discovered that the detector rod might be out of adjustment. The pinsetter detects a strike condition, it detects standing pins and sets up for 2nd ball delivery, but if it encounters an out-of-range condition it does not stop the clutch. (Complaint 44, page 4-13). Only 3 "most probable causes" so hopefully I'll be able to finish the lane tomorrow. Be glad when I finally start getting pure maintenance time, instead of trying to work around bowlers... lol

                        Thanks everyone for your advice and suggestions. Everyone was pointing me towards a bind in one of the linkages, which really saved me a lot of work.


                        • #13
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