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  • ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

    HELP,

    I HAVE MACHINE THAT IS BLOWING HIGH VOLTAGE
    FUSES. IF YOU UNPLUG THE LIGHT THE MACHINE WILL RUN. I CHECKED FOR GROUND PROBLEMS. THE ONLY THING I FOUND DIFFERENT THAN MY OTHER MACHINES IS I HAVE 69 VOLTS RUNNING THRU THE H-3 LINE ON MY TRANSFORMER WHEN THE MACHINE IS NOT RUNNING. THE REST OF THE MACHINES HAVE NOTHING WHEN THE MACHINE ISN'T RUNNING.
    I UNHOOKED THE WIRE FROM H-3 AND IT STILL HAS 69 VOLTS. CAN THIS BE FEEDING THRU THE OTHER LINES. I PUT A NEW TRANSFORMER ON IT.
    THESE IS JAP ELEC. SYSTEM. ANYBODY HELP WOULD BE GATEFULLY HELPFUL

  • #2
    Re: ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

    Ace:

    Bad pin light ballast or wiring to it, but I'd change the ballast first. 99% of all xformer/hv fuse problems are ballast related.

    Good thing you have the right fuse in the HV side, or you'd be smoking transformers!!!

    Kevin

    [This message has been edited by KL Kevin (edited 01-04-2000).]

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

      I'M STILL HAVING TROUBLE. I TOOK THE PIN LIGHT OUT AND TOOK TO THE NEXT MACHINE AND IT WORKS JUST FINE. STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THE 68 VOLTS THAT ARE COMING THRU
      H-3 IS COMING FROM. THERE IS NOTHING HOOKED TO IT.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

        Ace:
        69 volts between H-3 and what? H-3 should be running to pin lite plug in, with a branch running to terminal f on high voltage strip. It also supplies the selenium rectifier through the fuse to terminal g, along with H-2 from the transformer. Most generally if you disconect a componet from a circuit and the problem goes away, that componet is the problem, however in the case of a fuse limited circuit, such as the 115v which supplies both the pin lite and selenium, either componet may be drawing max amps by itself, yet when paired, is to much for the fuse. Amp-probe the selenium, by itself, then plug in the lite for a total reading.
        I agree with K.L. in that most hv fuse failure are ballast related, however in your case I would check draw on both.
        Good luck
        Roscoe
        rfm

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

          H-3 HAS NOTHING ON IT. I'M GETTING THE 69 VOLTS THRU THE LEAD ITSELF WITH NOTHING HOOKED TO IT

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

            I don't know much about jap. machines. If they are similar to reg. bruns. machines. In looking at schematic check your time delay module if you have them, maybe something is wrong with module. Terminals 19 & 29 supply voltage to cycle solenoid, check points in time delay module, they may be dirty or pitted causing voltage to leak thru when points are supposed to be opened I may be all wet, but just a thought.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

              This one's been driving me nuts (hate unsolved puzzles), but let's take another path.

              Only two possible culprits, right ... rectifier and ballast.

              Only 2 reasons for rectifier to draw excess current ... weak mag clutch coil or hosed rectifier ... a shorted rectifier, the mag clutch shouldn't work, but take nothing for granted.

              Unplug the magnetic clutch and check coil resistance. Should be 580 - 720 ohms, per factory service manual. Lower than 580 would bring current draw up and indicate the clutch could be contributing to the problem and need changing, at 580, clutch will draw .15 amp (90 volts/580 ohms) higher resistance e.g.720 ohms would be lower current, and less likely to blow fuse.

              Disconnect rectifier lead from ts 1-g and measure current (amps) from ts 1-g to the rectifier lead. Since you only put in what you get out (wattage, Volts*Amps will be constant), Reading should be about .15 amps or so (give or take a little) If it's close, leave the rectifier lead disconnected, plug in pin light, Blow fuse, change ballast. If it's much over .25 amps, I'd say the rectifier could be the culprit (what's your thought on normal versus excessive draw here, roscoe??).

              Your phantom voltage would suggest that it's coming from the ballast, it's the only component on the H-3 side of the transformer that could leak power ... does it go away when you unplug the pin light??? If so, even more likely the ballast is the culprit.

              Good luck:

              Kevin

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

                K.L. Kevin:
                I'm still at a loss as to where Ace is measuring 69 Volts AC. If one meter lead is on H-3,which should be connected to pin lite plug in on Japanese mch, where is other meter lead connected, to obtain this voltage reading? I'm reading his missives as H-3 is a unconnected wire, if his mchs. are 220 only H-5 should be the disconnected or parked wire. I would suggest, that possibly, having previously changed transformers, he might have an incorrectly marked transformer, which takes a Fluke 77 or better to identify.
                Roscoe:
                rfm

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

                  Ace,
                  You proberly got the 60v when measureing to ground.....measure between H & E you should get your imput voltage(208 or 230)
                  Then measure H & G you should get 1/2 your imput voltage (104 or 115),you should also get the same 1/2 reading at E & F.
                  Let us know theses reading and we can go on.

                  Is it still blowing fuses?

                  also as stated above, unhook componants til find whats blowing fuses.
                  Pinlight,rectifier,motor contactor coil.

                  Good Luck ,Keep us Posted
                  Peanut
                  Peanut

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

                    IT'S FIXED. I PUT A NEW TRANSFORMER ON IT AND
                    I STILL HAD 69 VOLTS AT THE H-3 LEAD. SO I GOT MY SCHEMATIC AND THE LIGHT WENT ON IN MY HEAD THAT I HAVE 230 VOLTS COMING TO THE PINSETTERS. I WAS WIRING FOR 208 VOLTS. BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY THE REST OF THE MACHINES ARE WIRED. THERE 2 WIRES THAT GET WIRED DIFFERENT OFF OF THE TRANSFORMER FOR 230 VOLTS. IT WORKS FINE NOW. BUT NOW MY QUESTION IS ARE THESE OTHER MACHINE THAT ARE WIRED FOR 208 GOING TO START BLOWING THINGS UP OR WILL THEY BE FINE. BY THE WAY THANK YOU FOR EVERYBODY HELP. I'VE LEARNED ALOT OVER THE LAST WEEK. I THINK MY ASS AND KNEE'S HAVE ARTITHIS SETTING IN THEM FROM BEING BENT OVER THAT ELECTRIAL BOX. LOL

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

                      Ace:
                      An old axiom in the business is, if it isn't broke, don't fix it. Don't agree with this, as pertains to pinsetters. My philosophy of doing business is, if you have a problem on one mch., check that area on all of it's sisters. The name of our game is preventative maintainence.
                      If, you have 208 wired machines, with 220-230 house supplied voltage, I would indeed, check voltages being supplied to pin lite, which will be the same as supplied to the rectifier, check at pin lite plug in. If over 140vac, rewire transformer leads, as you did on the mch you were working on. All other voltages will be OK, as a 208 motor, working on 220, is in effect supercharged, runs cooler, has more power. The inverse is not true, a 220 mtr. will not run long on 208. The H-5 lead on the transformer was to ensure adequate voltage for 115v applications with only a power supply of 208. Another aside, the Brunswick pinsetter, models A, Jet back, A-2, do NOT use the machine as a chassis ground, In fact the transformer is an isolation transformer. All voltages are checked between circuits, never to ground. Especially on the low voltage side, indeed a ohm reading of more than 50 ohms to ground on low voltage side, denotes a problem,( excecpt for you auto scoring mechs,)
                      Roscoe
                      rfm

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

                        The thought of one machine wired differently from all the others scares me ...

                        I would suggest taking out your trusty DVM (analog meters aren't precise enough, as roscoe said earlier, unhook all the h side leads and checking the resistance of the transformer primary from 1-2, 3-4, 4-5, and 3-5. Write down the readings and check them against its next door neighbor. Possible that the leads are mis-tagged, and when you wired it "wrong" the second time it may have made it the same as the others.

                        Worth the few minutes to check it out, IMO ...

                        Kevin

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

                          Roscoe,
                          I think I understand what you are saying about checking to ground.
                          I had to spend 3 weeks at a postal school on Industrial Electrical Service and it included 2 weeks of troubleshooting.
                          We were taught to read the schematic and split the control circuit in half.
                          By half I mean that 1 side of the transformer is fused and the other half not.
                          If we went from 1 side to the other at the transformer we got 24 volts.
                          We were also taught to troubleshoot the control circuit(low voltage)in the static state.(machine ready to be turned on)
                          Example,I would check the masking unit switch with one lead on one side of the transformer and the other lead should read 24 volts on both sides of the switch.
                          (switch closed as it should be)
                          We were taught how to read ladder diagrams and color code the control circuit into 2 colors so you knew which side of the transformer to get your reading from.
                          It was so much easier having a schematic drawing instead of the complete wiring diagram that is in the service manual.
                          I e-mailed Kevin and Mike when I got back from school about trying to work on a ladder diagram for the pinsetter to aid in troubleshooting.
                          I have found a Brunswick ladder diagram for the model A pinsetter.
                          I do not know how to integrate the time delay module and other things for the a-2.
                          (different contactors etc.)
                          If you happen to have a schematic (ladder diagram) for the A-2 electrical box I would
                          GREATLY appreciate it.
                          Thanks Grambo
                          And your input is greatly welcomed here and I am glad you did not leave after that bad posting response awhile back.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: ELECTRIAL PROBLEM

                            Regarding bad post:
                            Gentlemen:

                            The last post I made concerning 50 ohm reading to ground from low voltage strip was blantly in error, (serious typo) any ohm reading, under 10K is unaccecpatable. From experience, reading a low voltage strip with auto scoring, you can expect a 5-8 vac reading, to ground, which is why I chide our scoring friends.
                            Apoligize for misinformation
                            Roscoe
                            rfm

                            Comment

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