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  • Speed Kills

    JBEES said this..."If you have factory A2's running at A2 speed...I have seen deck lift shafts that develop a bow in them"...

    We have Jap A2s on the first eight lanes that have had the pully replaced from the one that came with it to slow them down but they are still fast. Most of my major breakdowns come from lanes 1-8, due to the speed in my opinion. The owner of this house told me that they are as slow as they can get, but surely there are other pulleys that would slow them down a bit more. They still finish their cycle way ahead of the rest of my pinsetters.

    Speaking of speed, the ball returns on these eight are different than the rest of the house. They are the long belt type which have the shorter drive belt on the same "pulley" as the big, long ball belt. At times, with certain balls, the long belt will track over and knock the little drive belt off. If the house if full, this makes for lots of hair pulling. Is there a better way for this? I thought about milling down the end of the pulley where the short drive belt rides so that the big belt would miss it, but I dont have that much metal to do this.

    Thanks............rob
    Space is the Place!

  • #2
    Re: Speed Kills

    Rob:

    Post the diameters of the pulleys, both motor/elevator and motor to gearbox, and the rotation speed of the motor, then we'll be able to say if you can get something different:

    Kevin

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Speed Kills

      <Speaking of speed, the ball returns on these eight are different than the rest of the house. They are the long belt type which have the shorter drive belt on the same "pulley" as the big, long ball belt. At times, with certain balls, the long belt will track over and knock the little drive belt off. If the house if full, this makes for lots of hair pulling. Is there a better way for this? I thought about milling down the end of the pulley where the short drive belt rides so that the big belt would miss it, but I dont have that much metal to do this.>

      What you can do is take both pullies to a machine shop and have them mill them so that the center of the pulley has the original "hump" needed to keep the long belt from moving. (I can't remember the term for it. It might be caused by the beer maybe....)

      You can do this once, but I don't recommend it twice. I've done it before many times on different lanes, and they have lasted for several years.

      Good luck!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Speed Kills

        I work on a nice collection of converted A's, A-2's, and Japanese A-2's. They all have Jet Back pulleys. (Except the 2 A-2's with 27:1 gearboxes)
        I believe the Jet back motor pulley is 6.80" for the gearbox and 3.5" for the elevator. If your motor pulleys are about 5.25" and the machine takes about 13 seconds to cycle they are A's. 6.80" and a 10 second cycle, they are Jet Back. I think an A-2 pulley is about 7.75" and takes about 7 or 8 seconds to cycle. The 27:1 uses a double 3" pulley and takes about 10 seconds to cycle. The last I knew Brunswick was trying to sell everybody on a new pulley that is a 60:1 6.80" and 3" for the elevator.
        On the ball accelerator, we cut the motor pulleys down from 2 23/32 to 1 11/16 and replaced the drive belts. We are still using 3450 RPM motors. The accelerators and the power lifts require much less repair since we made this change.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Speed Kills

          The part number you want to slow down your machines is 12-400081. You will also find that your current combination of motor belts will not work. I have moved to Grainger for my supply of motor belts. 4L940 is used as the motor to elevator and 4L640 is used as the motor to gear box.
          TSM & TSM Training Development
          Main Event Entertainment
          480-620-6758 for help or information

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Speed Kills

            Planet

            I have had 3 size motor pulleys at different locations. A2 (huge) jetback (medium) A (small).

            We completely slowed down a 20 lane Jap center
            after installation. We dropped all the way down to an A motor pulley. One problem this causes,
            keep an eye on pins not setting causing deck jams.
            The combination of the A2 cam on the 1 to 1 and
            slow running has a tendency not to snap pins back
            when shifting to set. One obvious problem was
            colored urethane 5 pin buckets.

            We also slowed down the ball accellerators by cutting down the pulley on the motor. We raised the front of the accellerators slightly to stop
            the belt jumping problems.

            When slowing the pinsetter or accellerator, you'll need new accellerator and short motor belts.
            We also slowed the turrets down.

            In my opinion the slower you can run the better.

            Hope this helps.

            R&amp;SL

            molligan [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]
            molligan

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Speed Kills

              have found that "jet back speed" is best all around speed for pinsetter, faster cycle time with less speed on the elevator.. pulley size - 6.8 gearbox and 3.0 for the elevator- Vantage or Quality sell these.
              as for the accelerator - the best fix I've seen is a v-belt running from the front accel. pulley to the motor with a v belt pulley. size can be individually determined although With a "Retarder" in the powerlift I would not drop too far below a 2 1/2" pulley with a 4L330 belt, installing the ZOT accelerator kit is also a great idea lifting the belt and dropping the height and time the belt contacts the ball a great combat for the problem reactive resin balls and here in the North a combat to those bowlers that leave their ball in the trunk of the car all day in below freezing weather. all of these are great ideas that run slower and quieter...

              jeff

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Speed Kills

                molligan...

                I have 16 Japanese A-2's running at A speed. I have never seen a problem setting pins...but all of our deck chutes have been trimmed. Maybe that would help if you haven't already done so. I wouldn't want to scare anybody off of slowing down their machines by thinking that would happen if they did slow them down.

                This house and a few others around me had slowed down the turrets, pin wheels and cross conveyors by swapping pulleys between the ball whell driveshaft and the pin wheel driveshaft. I found that bowlers had to wait for pins to get up top a little more often if bowlers were stringing strikes. Thursday night was a bad night for that problem. Swapped all my pulley's back where they belonged and noticed the league finishing 5 to 10 minutes earlier than they were before I changed them. I understand the theory of slowing things down, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Just where to draw that line would depend on your bowlers and how fast they bowl and how often they throw strikes. With all of us trying to increase the bowlers "ability" with lane conditions, that scenario seems to occur more often. So, you new guys...be careful when slowing your machines down...you don't want to slow down your bowlers too...

                ...over the years I have found that A speed is the best to keep parts from wearing out. But, that is just my humble opinion...

                The house I'm in now has 16 Japanese A-2's and 32 field converted A-2's. (old greenies...yuck) To keep everything consistent, we run the A-2's at A speed so they look the same to the bowlers. Just how much of this game is in the mind of the bowler...but that is another discussion all it's own...and I really don't want to go there...LOL

                [ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: JBEES ]
                TSM & TSM Training Development
                Main Event Entertainment
                480-620-6758 for help or information

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Speed Kills

                  JBEES

                  On full disclosure, have not been around pinsetters since Aug. 1996 ( retired )
                  The 20 lane center we slowed down had problems
                  with I believe they were Hy Line buckets (orange &amp; green). We tried different things but couldn't get rid of the occassional jam. Once replaced, our problem stopped. I do remember mechanics cutting the bottom from some buckets. I find it strange that the original deck buckets had there tabs extend all the way down without problems but that was when the pins were plastic coated &amp; the
                  surface didn't expand.
                  By slowing the elevators &amp; turrets we ran 21 pins without delay. This was a very high lineage center. The pins had to shake back without delay or there would be a delay. I tried doing the same slow down on an A machine but do to the size of the pulley, the pin wheel was way to slow.
                  I agree with running A speed. If anyone has never
                  had the opportunity to see a pinsetter run A2 speed, you won't believe it.

                  R&amp;SL

                  molligan
                  molligan

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Speed Kills

                    We have all our pinsetter slowed down to A speed or slower ,we didn't have any deck jams because of the speed,but what I did notice is that once in a while the 7_10 pins would lay over and fall in the gutter as the deck set a rack of pins.

                    After looking into the problem I found that with the deck shifting so slow that the corner pins would accutally rest on the scissor deck until the deck retracted causeing them to fall over.(the 7-10 pins is the only pins that this happens on because these are the only pins where the stationary deck does have casting completely to the sides of the pins)

                    Putting a double roller on these postions will do away with the problem. I posted this before and I got e-mails wanting me to describe where I put the rollers.
                    I thought a picture would help.
                    The x-washer pin is # 12-150158-009.


                    [ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: masternut ]



                    [ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: masternut ]
                    Peanut

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Speed Kills

                      As for your long Ball Accelerator belt kicking the other small drive belt off, get the ZOT kits that raise your accelerators a bit. I used to have this problem until I did this with all my machines. You will never have that problem again, plus it saves on the belt also(the long one). Good luck
                      Eddie

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Speed Kills

                        Hey,

                        Check your pinsetter &amp; return motors.
                        Sometimes the Japanese machines will be delivered with motors rated at 50Hz, not the 60Hz we have in the US.
                        I have also seen motors rated for 200 volts running on the US 220 volts. These motors run faster and hotter than what the are designed for.

                        Wookie8662

                        Comment

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