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  • Cycle Solinoid converted A2

    Hey yall...I have BRC "A" Machines and Bowl-tronic electric triggering. The problem I am having on some of the machines is.. the solinoid is like not getting energized enough to pull up the plunger therefore intermitant no trigger.

    Replaced trigger relays, tightened wires on trigger relay bases, replaced cycle solinoid,replaced plunger, replaced plunger link, put spring with less tension on bellcrank(if i put one with not enough tension then it will trigger on own).

    any help would be appreciated [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif[/img]

  • #2
    Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

    rsmith
    It sounds like you got juice you are just out of adjustment. There are two screws that mount the solenoid to the bracket, these are also adjusting screws. You can move the solenoid up and down or cockeyed. Also check the cover to make sure plunger is not binding on the acess hole and make sure the plunger is going all the way home.
    John B
    ------------
    just fix it

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

      RSmith:
      You mentioned you had Mdl. A mchs. Are you using the original A trigger solonoids, or did you use the A/2 conversion? If indeed you did convert, the correct adj. on the solonoid is, run mch to 180, shut off, pull up on solonoid untill fully bottomed in bore. At this time there should be a 3/16" gap between the ledge and roller. Use the slotted bolt holes to obtain this, all the while, keeping the linkage in a straight line of pull.
      There are, however, many other issues involved here. We need to know the voltage of the machines, (ie). 220, 208. 115. also the part number of the solonoids you purchased. The kit comes with the correct spring, but every thing has to be in order to use it. A possible alternative for you to look at, is the latest model spacer and bearing assembly, (used on 100,000 and up), which consists of a shorter needle roller bearing , in conjunction with two small spacers. These componets were developed to lessen the pull required to pull the ledge, all the while ensuring adequate relocking. More input from your end, please.
      Hope of spme help.
      Roscoe.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

        If you have the early input shaft seal retainers(with the large flange) I've seen out of adjustment on the clutch cause this problem. When the clutch is disengaged you should be able to pick up on the arm thus insuring a gap exists between seal retainer and clutch drive disc assembly (12-860613).

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

          i have the same machines.. ITS NOT THE CYCLE SOLENOID!!!!!!!.. IF IT WORKS THEN IT WORKS IF NOT THEN IT DONT, DONT LISTEN ABOUT THE ADJUSTMENTS PEOPLE WILL TELL YOU... THEY ARE NOT THAT PICKY, AS LONG AS STRAIGHT.. first thing i would look at is time delay, might be weak. shotgun might be out of adjustment. the gap between it and the bearing.. bowltronics could be the problem, sending false signal.. clutch could be out of adjustment.. alot things can cause a false trigger.. cam adjustment on the rake can also cause, or rack trip switch.. there are numerous of things.. but if your solinoid was working at one point, put it back. they are not picky in this config, as long as straight.. in my experiance with your problem would be bowltronics.. id replace the board with the 2 relays in it and try it again, after putting it back where it cycled, believe me, bowltronics can give you a headache.. i have unpluged them before with no fix and then actually ended up cutting the main wires to the machine to make it work.. sounds freaky, but one of the owners in the town i work in owns two house had the same problem, that is what he did, i thought what a dork, but guess what, it worked on my lane till i redid it

          steve

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

            Steve...that is a bit arrogant...telling someone to ignore the advice of another mechanic...adjustments are there for a reason. I would always make sure your adjustments are correct before looking for other problems...Roscoe is really on target here by asking for a little more info. He could have 230 volt solenoids mounted on 115 volt machines. Or the solenoid circuit could be wired for 115 volts and should be wired for 230.

            One thing to check would be your 180 degree interlock link adjustment. If the adjustment is too high, you may be putting undo force on the accuator links when the deck is full. Try pushing down on you link when the deck is full and the clutch latch is down. If there is no movement downward when you try to push it down, the clutch latch may not want to come out from under your pin on your clutch reset lever. This would make your solenoid look weak when it is really just too much pressure where it shouldn't be. Let us know what you have so we can help you...
            TSM & TSM Training Development
            Main Event Entertainment
            480-620-6758 for help or information

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

              Check the wire terminals on your cycle plug and recpticale, these will often come loose.

              Also after making the above adjustment checks,
              do a little test,pull up on the cycle solonoid plunder with you hand and compare the resistance with other machines. If it is hard to pull with your hand it is going to be hard to pull with the solonid.Then you can go from there.....
              make sure your linkage is not dry and binding.also if your out-or-range connecting link has a wear spot in it(the slotted part) it can cause the bellcrank to bind.

              Alot of good advise from most of these post,take your time an post back any problems and finds.

              Peanut
              Peanut

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

                I have "a"machines,my solinoids converted to "a2"(208-230 volts). Plunger doesnt have a lip, Its new( the one brunswick sells #10-688003-000). Do not have shotguns ( wish I did) bowltronics triggers machine.

                I cannot adjust solinoids @ 180 to get 3/16" gap between clutch latch and pin on reset lever(this is my problem), because to much tension on spring (the one for clutch stop arm ) all of my adjustments are correct( except this).I believe it is bowltronics also. Will replace boards with known good and let yall know.

                Thanks for the help

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

                  Rsmith:
                  Let those whom believe a solonoid, if it energises, is adequate. Those of us whom have been working on them for more then a year or so, realize they do lose their pulling power, and must be replaced. It is a matter of judjment or if you will, a feel on just how hard a solonoid pulls. One does this best by simply holding the ledge forward, opposing the pull, while the solonoid is energised. Indeed, you will find a great variance, in pulling power, just going across a 24 lane house. However, just to clear matters up, I would suggest putting a locking VOM meter on the wires at the solonoid in question. In this manner you can elimate any voltage questions, along with maybe not having to cut wires that cause spurious recycling, (which I didn't think was in your original post). I would still like to know why you cannot obtain the 3'16 ledge adjustment at 180, this adjustment simply assures the solonoid has enough inertia to trip the ledge. Also the reason for the slot in bottom of link.
                  If indeed there was no problem in this area, I'm certain the manuf., would not have gone to the trouble of both designing a different curvature on the ledge along with designing a needle roller, with spacers, to replace the original one peice sleeve. I hope some of this is helpful to your problem. If not, continue to post until the problem is fixed, its remedy will be most helpful to all.(to those of us whom have an open mind, and are willing to learn from such a myraid of experience).
                  Roscoe.
                  rfm

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

                    rsmith
                    One more thought, I hate to keep hankering on the adj. part but since you mentioned that you have a conv to a2 which is exactly what I have take a look at the bracket that the soleniod bolts up to. You can move that piece also it's not a real good design alot of room for error and make sure you have the right spacers in the right places on those mounting bolts they can cause a bind in the starter bellcrank assy. When I can't get that gap on the clutch actuator I go straight to the solenoid and mounting bracket.
                    Hope this helps. Can't wait to hear what the problem was. :p
                    John B
                    ------------
                    just fix it

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

                      it might be arrogant what i said, but i have the same machines he has. except i have the shotguns. and like he said, everything is in adjustment and the cycle solinoid cant be adjusted, all you can do is straighten that weak braket.. I wasnt trying to go against any mechanic, i was just simply stating, THAT IF THE CYCLE SOLINOID IS WORKING, ITS GOOD!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

                        Steve...there are probably 40000 or more of those machines out there. You are not the only one with machines like his. I too, have converted A-2's. So, I know the problem he is speaking of. And as you said...if the solenoid works...then it works. But there are things other than just pulling up on a solenoid to consider. How a solenoid actually works comes into play here.

                        If you don't like science...stop here... The relative permeability (the ability of the magnetic field to perform work) of air within a magnetic coil is about 1. If you insert a bar of nickel into that same coil, you increase the relative permeability of that area inside the coil to around 100. If you insert a bar of iron, it goes to around 200. If you use permalloy (78.5% nickel, 21.5% iron), that number runs up to 8000. That means the field can do 8000 times as much work as the air by itself. When a solenoid operates such as ours, only part of the plunger is inserted into the coil. The rest is air. The amount of work that can be performed when the solenoid is first energized is based on how much of that plunger is inserted into the coil. As the plunger is drawn into the coil, the ratio of air to metal changes. The relative permeability also changes as the plunger rises. There is a slot in the link that is connected to the plunger allowing more of the plunger to be drawn into the coil before any movement of the clutch latch begins. This allows the plunger and link to gain momentum and for the relative permeability to rise as high as possible before work begins. The higher the relative permeability is when work begins, the stronger the pull of the plunger. How is this affected by our adjustment? The lower you can set the solenoid body on its mount, while allowing the plunger to pull the clutch latch far enough rearward to free it from the pin/roller on the clutch reset lever, the higher the plunger will be inside the coil when work begins. This will allow the relative permeability to be as high as possible and still perform the mechanical movement that is required. So you see, the adjustment is there to gain as much pull as possible from your solenoid by keeping the plunger as far inside the coil as possible. Too much air in the coil will reduce your pull by as much as 8000 times. (Yes, that is an extreme, but you get the idea) There is another alloy called mumetal (75% nickel, 18% iron, 5% copper, 2% chromium) that will give relative permeabilities of around 20000!! I wonder what our plungers are made of?? So you can even see that a small difference in the amount and type of metals used can cause a very big difference in how well a solenoid works.

                        So, for those that were interested enough to read that mumbo-jumbo, what does it all mean? The lower you set the coi on its mounting bracketl...the better. But not too low, or your clutch latch won't let go of the pin/roller on the clutch reset lever. Adjustments were made for a reason...

                        I wonder if we can get plungers made from that mumetal? Gordon? What are yours made from?? Just kidding [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]
                        TSM & TSM Training Development
                        Main Event Entertainment
                        480-620-6758 for help or information

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

                          Steve:
                          Great post, not only informative, but well presented. I enjoyed reading it.
                          Thanks
                          Roscoe.
                          rfm

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

                            hey guys, i know that one can be out of adjustment, all i was stating is that it was sounding exactly like a bowltronics problem to me. i had the same problem as him. and that is what it was.. if only i thought it was that simple to begin with, ya right , life isnt that darn easy especially with 40 year olds.. you get the point, they are dirty old under cared machines and still trying to catch up on them.. as far as me only being a mech on them for a year, yeah i wish... sorry, more around 15 or so, here and there.. wish i was still at the first house, things ran soooooooo smooth, but oh well, i kind of enjoy these old guys with all the problems they throw at me.. Im just getting tired of the phone calls at midnight asking if i will come in to fix one lane, yeah right, what they smoking....Sorry to anyone i was affending, i didnt mean to and always try to get straight to the problem therefore the person isnt going after something that is perfectly fine, and my bowltronics, i just assume throw the things out the door if i could.. grrr. im thinking mechanical cycling is sounding nice some days..hehehe, maybe i can get the mice out from above and beyond to just sit back there and trip the clutch's for me everytime and pay them with cheese..lol.. wishful thinking huh? they would probably just go on strike anyways, with my luck.. go figure..lol...

                            steve
                            and dang it masternut, i want a clean machine like yours. JUST ONE!!!! 12pack sound good? hehehe

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Cycle Solinoid converted A2

                              I have the Jap a-2's and had one do the intermittent problem and found it was the solenoid was out of adjustment,also i had to replace the clutch reset lever(crack in it),i did try to replace the re-set lever latch but the new one that came in is the WRONG style,i have no dashpots so the latch needs to be of a shorter style meaning in needs to be shorter and the latch edge/lip needs to be smaller too,it will not always cycle with the new latch.
                              NO...i do not have converted units but maybe this can help in the future.
                              I did replace the time delay first but use it as a good spare now.I ordered the latch for my machines(83,000 models)but the wrong one came in.
                              NO troubles since the adjustment/latch work.
                              Use what you have to,to get it through the shift then fix it right.Do it right and live through the night...Safety first!

                              Comment

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