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Hypothetical Question - No full cycling on gutter balls or 1 pin hits?

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  • Hypothetical Question - No full cycling on gutter balls or 1 pin hits?

    Hey guys,

    I am just a simple "pinchaser in training" and love coming to this board to learn about these machines. First of all, you guys are awesome and really know your stuff. Here is my hypothetical question:

    AMF machines have a process (not sure of the exact name) but if a person bowls a gutter ball or only knocks down the 10 or 7 pin, the machine never actualy picks up pins or sweeps the deck. I figured the only way this works is due to the actual cycle of the machine being linked to the scoring system. Would there be anyway to add this component to brunswick machines? There are already some links between scoring and machine cylces with foul lights and 10h frame detecters. Hypothetically, would it be possible to somehow link the scoring scanner to detect pinfall and if there were no pins down or a single pin down, to simply have the rake rise back up? Again, based on my LIMITED knowledge, perhaps something could be linked to the OOR detector which would freeze the deck from coming down and engaging the scissors a preventing the sweep from clearing he deck. I assusme over time, this could save on wear and tear of the deck coming up in down. I assume this is easier and more practical to do on AMFs because each system has it own motor. But again, this is just a hypothetical and I was curious if you guys thought it would actually be possible, and if so, how would you do it? Thanks and keep up the great work.
    There are no dumb questions. Only dumb people that don't give well thought-out answer to questions.

  • #2
    Re: Hypothetical Question - No full cycling on gutter balls or 1 pin hits?

    Impossible or impractical:

    On A-2 or jetback machines, ball impact collapses the shotgun to start the machine cycle. Machine has not moved, rake cam follower is on high dwell of rake cam. In order to re-engage shotgun and lift rake, rake cam follower must come to first low dwell for shotgun to re-latch. At that point, you're already at 45 degrees, on the way down. Now, you'd have to come to a complete stop, and reverse the motor from a dead stop with deck weight load on it.

    Remember that the OOR mechanism only keeps the rake from sweeping, the scissors still close and the machine thinks it is running a standing pins cycle, so really there's nothing to be gained, as you'd still have to complete the cycle.

    You could make it happen technically, by locking in the OOR to keep the rake from sweeping, and firing the New Pin Solenoid to block out the scissors a-la-no-tap, but the deck is still going to make the stroke, so no purpose would be served.

    It's really doubtful if it serves any purpose on AMF machines, unless you've got a bantam league on it where the 6 year olds do tend to throw lots of first ball gutters ... most open and league bowlers don't throw enough 1st ball gutters for it to be worthwhile anyway:

    Kevin

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    • #3
      Re: Hypothetical Question - No full cycling on gutter balls or 1 pin hits?

      WHich actually brings me to my next question (BTW Thanks for the great answer). How exactly mechanically deal with No Tap?
      There are no dumb questions. Only dumb people that don't give well thought-out answer to questions.

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      • #4
        Re: Hypothetical Question - No full cycling on gutter balls or 1 pin hits?

        AMF machines will also do the "short" strike cycle. Table will not lower, sweep will swwep deadwood and set a new rack. A short strike cycle on a Brunswick, a possiblity. Like a foul cycle but machine would have to remain on first ball after setting pins. Something it think about.
        Marty
        56 Jap A-2's Qubica VDB's
        2 Kustodian Walkers
        http://s1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/a2mechanic

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        • #5
          Re: Hypothetical Question - No full cycling on gutter balls or 1 pin hits?

          Sorry, how does the machine deal mechaanically with no tap? What processes take place?
          There are no dumb questions. Only dumb people that don't give well thought-out answer to questions.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Hypothetical Question - No full cycling on gutter balls or 1 pin hits?

            No-tap is handled by the new pin solenoid and the cycle link, which hooks into the strike selector through the old connection for the 90 overtravel on second ball.

            When the scorer sees only one pin on first ball (take data is at 44 degrees), the NPS fires, pulling the standing pins selctor. This makes the standing pins cam follower follow the low dwell, which rotates the cycle link to unblock the strike selector. At this point, the machine has not yet had the chance to detect standing pins, and the cycle link holds the strike selector up, causing the machine to detect strike (even though the correct height was not reached). When the machine detects strike, the scissors are blocked out, and the deck goes up, the standing pin is swept, and the machine sets a new rack as if an actual strike was bowled.

            Operationally, the foul and no-tap cycles are the same, but on foul, the NPS fires a second time at 0 to bring the machine to second ball with ten pins on the alley.

            There is NO possibility of a short strike cycle on a brunswick (A or A2 anyway). The only way the machine can set pins is with the moving deck follower unblocked at 180 for the deck to shift rearward, and the only way to get to 180 is to run the machine from 0 to 180. You could hold the deck up on the hook so the bowlers didn't see it, but since the gearbox still must rotate, there is no time to be saved, only potentially the wear of lifting the deck the second time ... but you'd have to introduce a delay at 0 to have the logic decide, so slower operation would be the result. Either way, you need a full revolution of the 1/1, so no time would be saved:

            Kevin

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            • #7
              Re: Hypothetical Question - No full cycling on gutter balls or 1 pin hits?

              Originally posted by KL Kevin:
              Impossible or impractical:

              It's really doubtful if it serves any purpose on AMF machines, unless you've got a bantam league on it where the 6 year olds do tend to throw lots of first ball gutters ... most open and league bowlers don't throw enough 1st ball gutters for it to be worthwhile anyway:

              Kevin
              <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Many times inexperienced open bowlers only hit the 7 or 10 or throw a gutter.

              We do more open play than league play.

              You get as short cycle on a X, 7 or 10 pickoff or a gutterball.

              Our 70's have had short cycles for 12 years now.....you know how many times the table has not had to feel for pins in that time period....not to mention no wires off and machines setting pins on top of others.

              The $ saving in electricity alone probably pays for itself in 2 years with all the strikes thrown today.

              Jerry

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              • #8
                Re: Hypothetical Question - No full cycling on gutter balls or 1 pin hits?

                I must agree with King here .
                7/10's , Gutters , Auto Offspot &amp; Short X Cycle is damn handy .

                Speeds up play , Gets bowlers in &amp; out much quicker on Open Play + less wear on Pinsetter due to less Table runs . All that = More $$$ to the House [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

                If you can convert a Brunswick to to some or ALL of these features you will see a cost saving / Profit increase reasonable quickly

                IMHO

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                • #9
                  Re: Hypothetical Question - No full cycling on gutter balls or 1 pin hits?

                  Originally posted by Mark Anderson:
                  I must agree with King here .
                  7/10's , Gutters , Auto Offspot &amp; Short X Cycle is damn handy .

                  Speeds up play , Gets bowlers in &amp; out much quicker on Open Play + less wear on Pinsetter due to less Table runs . All that = More $$$ to the House [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

                  If you can convert a Brunswick to to some or ALL of these features you will see a cost saving / Profit increase reasonable quickly

                  IMHO
                  <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's where I will partially disagree with King and Mark. While convenient, the shortened Strike of Pickoff is not as reliable as having a deck come down to feel for pins. No need to worry about what the pinsetter (note pinsetter, not scoring) will do during Cosmic. Sometimes under non-ideal conditions, scanners/cameras may encounter some difficulty with reading pins under BLBs. Such interface with Scoring (AccuScore, and related with AMF machines) will cause the Chassis to resolve a strike cycle and sweep off any standing pins. Whereas with an A-2, the deck will come down and feel for pins and respot them since readings are taken from deck height to the detector rod. Scores can be easily corrected, but respots are a little more confusing for the open play yahoo. Also, another common issue on 70s is the infamous pin in curtain call. Bowler throws strike, camera sees "7" or "10" and machine respots and empty set. So, shortened cycle does have it's benefits, but it's not all bells and whistles...it does come with many tradeoffs.

                  It was also mentioned that with the tight interface table wiring is no longer needed. While true, what would happen in a situation where the camera fails or CWC failure and manual scoring is needed for some reason? Since one had to ground out at least one cell, the 82/70 would have to go through a standing pins cycle and respot a phantom rack if the bowler through a strike.
                  I guess it's just me and my personal preference about the table wire issue. I'm not knocking anyone for bypassing the table cable in any way, but I like the fact that I can run my pinsetter independent of the scoring with no adverse effects.
                  "Where are we going, and why are we in a hand basket?"

                  --Kat

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                  • #10
                    Re: Hypothetical Question - No full cycling on gutter balls or 1 pin hits?

                    I agree with the 7\10 or gutters and I also see no since for the machine to recycle if the detection plates hitting all 9 pins telling the machine there's really nothing on the deck any way so why waste the time. Just count 9 pins and go back to home position.
                    A great man is always willing to be little.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Hypothetical Question - No full cycling on gutter balls or 1 pin hits?

                      I was talking about GS machines
                      A great man is always willing to be little.

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