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  • Out of Range Question

    For all of you "historians",

    Has OOR technology (maybe technology is the wrong word)always been part of Brunswick machines (A - A2's)? Or was it added in after the fact? Just seems anitquated to me that you would have to pull an OOR rod to get the machine going. I thought about this reading the Auto OOR kits post. Of course, there is always something mechanical about the process which I don't understand, but is there a reason this process had not be moderninzed at all?
    There are no dumb questions. Only dumb people that don't give well thought-out answer to questions.

  • #2
    Re: Out of Range Question

    I've only been working on these machines for about 7 years, so perhaps what I have to say is absolutely wrong....but, hey, here goes....

    I have come to understand that when the "scissor" assemblies came about, they took in the account that pins would move off-spot without falling over, hence the situation that the scissors would pick up a pin and set it down in the same position. Also, very little changes (if any) have been made to the detector, there is an out-of-range cam. So I would think they would have considered this.

    But perhaps, I am WAY off.....hey, you never know. I don't think there was much change to the detector.

    As far as a reason this has not be modernized besides the auto OOR kits would be the deadwood situation. Of course, deadwood must be removed before the delivery of the second ball in sanctioned play. So the machine stopping at 90 degrees for out of range lets the bowler know to call the mechanic or pinchaser to clear the deadwood, so that the bowler doesn't mistakenly push the reset button, which will sweep all the pins altogether. That isn't good either.

    That's why I feel the Auto OOR kits are silly. If the pinsetter goes through the "Auto OOR" cycle. The bowler will see the deadwood and push the reset button (even if the 2nd ball light is on). So what is the point of installing the Auto OOR kits when bowlers will push the reset and you have to respot the pins anyways? You still would have to go to the machine.

    Are some of you mech's having that many of OOR to merit having an Auto OOR kit?

    Ta Ta for now,

    JOEY

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Out of Range Question

      Modernized ... it sure has been:

      Ever wonder why the detector has that big extension with the two lugs on it?? They were there to hold the microswitch that blacked out the early machines (single digit thousand serial numbers) when an OOR ocurred. Just stopping the gearbox was a BIG improvement over blackout. So, yes, OOR has been there right from go.

      As far as the kits go, more useful during open play, as you don't have to run down back to clear an oor condition, and also league when a single pin left on deck that slid, no intervention required. If someone who knows what they're doing asks, we'll clear deadwood for open, but most times they just throw the ball anyway, without it being a stop:

      Kevin

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Out of Range Question

        I think those two lugs your taking about are on the standing pin selector. They were a modification "B" tried to make the pinsetter operate like an AMF in shadow bowl (No pins practice for leagues). Didn't work worth a ****. After "B" got their own plant up and running (instead of Otis Elevator made machines) they dropped the shadow bowl crap.
        BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Out of Range Question

          Here's a question no has ever clairified. Do you count OOR's as a stop, even though it's a designed function to detect and stop the machine. OR would the fact that you have an OOR in the first place justify calling it a stop since "B" designed the machine to stop because it can't handle the now off spot pin.

          I don't think an operational function that works should be tallied into stops/frames. BRC use to have us count OOR's seperately, anything more than 1 per 1500-1600 frames were then considered "A PROBLEM".

          Just wondering how the real industry people tally their frames/stop.
          BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Out of Range Question

            Kevin is right,
            The first pinsetters had a jam switch mounted on the detector.When there was an OOr the bellcrank would activate switch. It was later replace with the mechanical linkage to stop clutch.

            In order for a pinsetter to get an ABC approval it has to be able to recognize an OOR pin.

            Peanut
            Peanut

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Out of Range Question

              Jim:

              ANYTHING that interferes with the normal progress of the game is a stop.

              If I didn't count respots/deadwood calls, my FPS would double ... but the bowlers aren't waiting any less ... Besides, sliders and respots are, or at least should be, avoidable:

              Kevin

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Out of Range Question

                Well, you have to remember that they (BRC) started this creative counting system when they first changed from BCO to BRC and they first cut all maintenence costs to nothing. So to keep the reviews up they said that OOR's were a function of the machine.

                I always counted all calls as stops, but at review time I got slamed for to many stops. On the third review I told them to stuff it because if it did or didn't function correctly, you still either had to clear the OOR or do a respot- It's still a stop.

                What kills me is the magic "ball on 6" when your standind behind the machine and there's no ball in sight.

                Had a desk "person" that would do this on a senior league. She didn't like the fact that there were no calls and thought I was doing nothing (she's got X-ray vision don't you know) and would call back mystery calls. So when she started her crap, and could verify it, I would get on the pinsetters and hit every take data switch at 0 degree's on first ball across the house. Nothing like 24 score corrections across the house to keep her off the microphone.

                Do you guys count score corrections into your FPS???? That is true corrections as in miss scores or failed to score, not wrong bowler or bowler on the wrong lane.

                As you can probable see I'm into statisical infomation as well as busted knuckles. Just got to love that grease under the finger nails.
                BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Out of Range Question

                  HOUSEBALL,
                  IF YOU DO NOT HAVE AUTO OOR'S INSTALLED , THEN HOW MANY OOR STOPS DO YOU HAVE JUST DURING OPEN PLAY? I INSTALLED MINE 10 YEARS AGO AND IT IS ONE OF THE BEST ADDITIONS TO THE PINSETTERS.IT'S BETTER THAN MAKING FREQUENT TRIPS DOWN BACK TO JUST CLEAR OOR'S ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU COULD BE DOING SOMETHING ELSE THAT'S MORE PRODUCTIVE.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Out of Range Question

                    Mainframe,

                    We have only about 2 OOR a day. So I don't think installing those kits would be necessary at this house. If we were getting maybe 10 OOR calls a day, then I would push for those.

                    TA TA for now,

                    JOEY

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Out of Range Question

                      oor is a stop, no question... bowler has to stop and correct the situation... the real question is whether the mechanic can't get the pindeck clean enough, or that the proprieter buys only a certain pin that slides 10x as much as pin b., or whether the pindeck product is a piece of xxxx.

                      jeff

                      "I'd be a much better mechanic if I could read the mind of the machines..."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Out of Range Question

                        The automatic out of range is a really great invention. We have tons of open play and hardly any leagues, so they save a lot of time and trouble. We do have an occasional dead wood call but not too many. In our company, we divide the calls into two catagories. Pinsetter malfunctions and customer inconveniences. Anything like deadwood,out of range, respots, bad pin, etc get counted as a customer inconvenience. These are not actually a problem with a pinsetter, but a inconvenience to our customers. All actual problems like 180's, blackout's etc get recorded as pinsetter malfunctions. This gives us a better picture of how our machines are running, and how many of our problems are caused by customers who don't bowl often, CSR's that are not trained properly and so on. They still count as a stop when calculating GPS or FPS, but the boss can get a good picture of how things are going on.
                        Sorry to keep on rambling on, and on, and on....
                        Automatic out of ranges are GOOD!

                        Comment

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