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intermittent problem


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  • intermittent problem

    a friend of mine went to work out of state in a new 40 lane house that opened in aug last year.
    all used equipment,jap a/2's,as80-90 scoring.
    this problem started about 3 weeks after they were open. when all 40 machines are on,at times different machines will start turning off at random ? one will go off then another one,sometimes around 6,7,8, will be off then 1 or 2 come back on and a few different ones shut off [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] then they all come back on and might stay on 5 minutes,then different machines start going off. and it happenes across all 40 where 12to15 machines may turn off,then come back on. then he says they might go 1-2 hours and none turn off,and he says sometimes he might go 2or3 days and none go off!
    and it's not the scoring! he said he has a box at the desk with toggle switches to turn the machines on without scoring if the scoring ever crapped out,turning these on does not stop the problem. when it gets real bad they have to turn all the machines on in the back! and they stay on. and he tells me if theres only around 30 lanes on they never shutoff! weird!
    he said he's checked all the grounds and there all there and there all tight!
    anybody ever run into this. DIRT
    if things aren't going right just use a bigger hammer! DIRT

  • #2
    Re: intermittent problem

    sounds like you have a problem with the bank eight losing the common. Check your curtain wall bank eight box for tight connections.You will need to get voltage reading when the lanes drop out....if you have no volts or if the voltages are low (i.e. 19-16 volts).this can cause relays to drop out. but will run fine when switches are used on the back of pinsetter.



    • #3
      Re: intermittent problem

      One thing that I have found as well, is that if you have a bare wire from the low voltage system on one machine touching the frame it will cause problems on other machines Example you turn off lane 1 and it also shuts down lane 6. Most of the time I find that is a cable that has been routed the wrong way at the rake stops or some one did not ty-rap the 24V control cable around a ball booster properly. Also have found cables laying in the under ground ball tracking not secured right. Good luck
      Most problems can be fixed with a cup of coffee and a bigger hammer.


      • #4
        Re: intermittent problem

        Since Its a new center just built, I wonder If It's possible some one wired more than 8 pinsetters on a bank?

        Also Its been awhile, But Is'nt the liu, I think that was the name of that board If I remember right. wired to the rockerswitches anyway? So If the liu was causing that problem, would'nt It still do It with the rockers on? please correct me If I'm wrong It's been awhile since I played with as-80's


        • #5
          Re: intermittent problem

          I just talked to my friend and got some more info. he says the 19 conductor is wired to the switches at the desk first,then to the liu!
          so being this way it rules out a liu problem,when the switches are on.
          the other strange thing he said is the machines that are closer to the desk have less problems turning them self off. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]
          and the other thing is it's not a bank of 8 machines,it's all 40 machines!
          he's checked all the screws in the junction boxes and found none loose,checked wiring at the desk switches and found nothing!
          he said he's hooked up his digital meter to a number of pinsetters and the voltage never varies over 3-4 volts??.
          he did say he's checked the voltage in the junction boxes and it's usually around 18-20 volts [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] I think that's a tad low!
          I told him to try checking it when the machines started going off,and see what it is!
          what could cause it to be that low most of the time. he's looked for wires rubbing and catching on things on the machines and found nothing? he says they did a nice neat job when they installed everything!
          at first I thought maybe the voltage in the building was dropping,but he says when the machines start going off at random theres no trouble with the foul lights or the scoring?
          I was in a center a few years back the voltage would drop down to 107 volts or less and the foul lights,and scanners would start going off at random,and the old 79 scanners would start giving x's most of the time! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
          you think maybe theres a ghost in the center?
          if things aren't going right just use a bigger hammer! DIRT


          • #6
            Re: intermittent problem

            There are three voltage taps that supply (I think 24,28,32) volts for lane control. It sounds like the 19 conductor is on the 24 volt tap instead of the 32 volt tap. "B" uses 32 volts for the desk connect because of the voltage drop to the desk and back, 28 volts for the ball return system, and 24 for inbox connects.

            If he still has the jap motor start relays, they suck a lot of current.

            This was a real problem if they are japs and the electrical boxes were not converted like they are supposed to be.

            Tell him to watch out for the cycle solenoid, and motor connectors under the wire channel. they burn up real good(stink like ****). Also if you unplug the motor and turn the machine on, DON'T NOT RUN YOUR HAND UNDER THE CHANNEL, the pins for the connector stick out of plug and are hot.

            Another thing, make sure the input voltage tap for the transformer is correctly selected. Remember the japs use 200 volt 50 hertz(cycle) power.

            If he has the toshiba motors and needs start switches for them, I have a retro fit plan that uses refrigeration start relays to replace the mechanical toshiba OEM switch that isn't availible anymore.

            Yes I've done lots of jap electrical. Jap electrical box wiring is way different than any thing else in the world. so much that there is a special page for the electrical box.

            Hop this helps!
            BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.


            • #7
              Re: intermittent problem

              Good post,I have seen that problem also with the jap pinsetters.On the jap transformers H3 and H5 has got either200v or 220v on the leads. You will want to use the 200v lead esp. if you have 208 pinsetters.

              If he has the toshiba motors and needs start switches for them, I have a retro fit plan that uses refrigeration start relays to replace the mechanical toshiba OEM switch that isn't availible anymore.
              <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would like some info on the switches we have over 70 toshiba motors we have 4-5 under the bench with broken or worn contacts.



              • #8
                Re: intermittent problem

                update on intermittent problem. keep this one in your hat! thanks for the suggestions.
                after talking to my friend at least 8-10 times or more,he would always say the problem was worst on the machines that were further away from the desk,and the voltage would drop more on them. I finally asked him if the wiring from the 19 conductor was as thick as the wires coming from the machines [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] next day he calls and tells me no it's as thin as the scoring wiring [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img] I think the scoring wire is around 26 gauge,maybe 28?
                anyway he replaced all the 19 conductor cable with 18 gauge on the 11th and no more problems as of today. :p I guess who ever installed that stuff tried to save some money!
                if things aren't going right just use a bigger hammer! DIRT


                • #9
                  Re: intermittent problem


                  Sorry I didn't see your post earlier, here's some info on the start switches.

                  I don't know if you have a Johnstone supply house around your area, But this is their part number.

                  Supco potential relay # APR-5, B12-402

                  And here it the grainger number, same manufacturer

                  Supco potential relay # APR-5, 4MG77 $28.80

                  The relay comes with all the instructions for installation and adjustment. I've always waited to install the motor to adjust the pickup and drop out voltages. Just stop the machine @ 270 setting pins,shut down the motor, engage the clutch and turn on the machine. Listen to the motor as it starts and make sure that the start winding is coming out of the power circuit at the right time. I find that 255-260 volts is about a right kickout voltage, I have 240 volt. The drop in (current sense) is a little more sensitive to turn on the start winding.

                  I also find it prudent to replace the start capacitors. Grainger has these also, they are a hair smaller than OEM, but a piece of leather cures that.

                  The relay fits inside the cover on the motor with a little work and you can take the cover off to get to the adjustments on the relay later if need be. Some mechanics will wire a harness from the motor to mount the relay externally from the motor.

                  Not sure if this link will work but it's for Grainger

                  If you need more info , post back. I'll try to pay better attention (right)!
                  BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.


                  • #10
                    Re: intermittent problem

                    Thanks Jim

                    I will keep posted on the results!



                    • #11
                      Re: intermittent problem

                      I know this is an old thread but I had a switch on one of my Jap motors break and thought I would try this mod. I purchased the relay you are talking about, but im kind of confused as to how to hook up the wiring. Can you explain so that someone like me would be able to wire it up? Right now the capacitors are still the OEM and wired up how they were, I just removed the switch leaving the two wires that went to the switch dangling for now.

                      and then he said, "on your death bed, you will receive total consciousness" so I got that going for me...... which is nice!


                      • #12
                        Re: intermittent problem

                        I've seen this problem a few times...what we've always done is rewire the machines so they're all individual...with automatic scoring you don't need the counters at the front desk so you can eliminate them.

                        In the J-box...disconnect the white wire from each of the 8 cables and replace it with the green wire from the common terminal...the black and green wires from these cables are the two wires you need to turn the machine on/off.

                        In the managers control...remove the wire that loops from switch to switch and replace it with the wire that doesn't loop from counter to counter.

                        For the scorer wires that tap into the switches in the managers control you'll likely see two sets of four wires that were connected to the loop you just got rid of...try them one at a time to the other side of the on/off switches until the scorer turns the lane on.

                        This way each machine will be on it's more screwy stuff happening.


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